Broadcast Retirement Network’s Jeffrey Snyder discusses the growth of sports betting, betting schedules and gambling addiction with East Carolina University‘s Michelle Malkin, PhD., East Carolina University.

Jeffrey Snyder, Broadcast Retirement Network

Well, Dr. Malkin, it’s so great to see you. Thanks for joining us this morning.

Michelle Malkin, PhD., East Carolina University

My pleasure, thank you.

Jeffrey Snyder, Broadcast Retirement Network

And also happy new year to you. And with the new year comes new challenges and new growth in the sports and gambling industry. Last time we chatted, I think there were like somewhere between 38, 39 states, somewhere around there that had legalized gambling.

I wanted to check in with you. Has gambling continued to expand across the United States?

Michelle Malkin, PhD., East Carolina University

Honestly, we’re seeing a jump in the number of states that don’t yet have legalized sports wagering, having it come up in legislation, but we haven’t really seen a move for new legislation so much as there’s been about two states that have legalized since we last talked, but there are several states that have always said they’re never gonna legalize gambling that are now talking about it. For example, we’re seeing Georgia and Texas continuously having the conversation. I see both of those states probably legalizing some forms of gambling in the next year or two.

Jeffrey Snyder, Broadcast Retirement Network

Yeah, I guess from a revenue side, forgetting the important things like addiction, but from the revenue side, the tax revenue, I could see the argument. We’ve talked about that. I even read, I think it was Maine that is thinking about taking sports gambling revenue and putting it towards the pension.

So I think states are being very unique in some of the ways they’re treating this newfound revenue.

Michelle Malkin, PhD., East Carolina University

Yeah, it’s been very interesting because the revenue is being used to support kind of state shortfalls in other areas rather than thinking about the revenue really going towards those people who need it most, those who are suffering from gambling issues, as well as the education and other things we could be doing around harm prevention early on. But at the same time, I mean, it is an attractive way to fill those shortfalls, but we have to think about who all that revenue is coming off of is the backs of people who probably can’t afford to be losing so much money, but that’s the reality. And the truth is that not only has legalized gambling really expanded, but so has illegal access to gambling, including hundreds and hundreds of applications on people’s phones that are not lawful.

Like they’re not gonna be having the revenue going to anything good in a state because it’s not being taxed or even included in state revenue.

Jeffrey Snyder, Broadcast Retirement Network

Well, how is that even possible? Because don’t they have to go through the app store and doesn’t the app store that’s available on your phone? I thought Apple and Google and whatever other brands there are I thought they kind of regulate that, don’t they?

Michelle Malkin, PhD., East Carolina University

They do to a point. There’s several people have shared apps with me that when they open it, it says like, Apple is not supporting the use of this application. The other thing is sometimes they advertise as their one thing.

I saw one that was advertising as like a darts game and actually when you open it, it’s all slot machines. So they’re being very creative and I have a feeling that some are getting taken off and a new one just comes right back on because the amount of revenue they’re getting from players makes it too attractive for them not to try to get people engaged in offshore wagering.

Jeffrey Snyder, Broadcast Retirement Network

Yeah, it’s like whack-a-mole. I can only imagine what it’s like to be a regulator. Let me ask you about some of these sports betting scandals.

I’ve been reading about them. I’m sure you have as someone who is the head of a gambling research entity, part of a major university. Does this, what are these predictive markets or prediction markets and some of these scandals, NCAA scandals, Major League Baseball scandals, to me it undercuts the actual sport itself.

If I know that, it kind of gives the wrong impression but what’s your impression of all these things that have come up over the last year?

Michelle Malkin, PhD., East Carolina University

Well, none of it has surprised me. I think I’ve always talked about the reality that people who are athletes, they have this need for action. And honestly, if you’re playing a game day in and day out, your dopamine levels are not necessarily rising to the same level as they used to.

So new opportunities for risk are gonna become attractive. And the reality of individuals who are making a lot of money through their sport, still trying to make money or doing something related to gambling, it’s just because gambling is everywhere. And so we say, don’t do this.

And then they find creative ways to do it. And it can be exciting, especially when you don’t get caught at first, then it’s easier to get more involved in it. I’m not surprised at all.

I’ve always said that the scandals are happening, we just don’t know about it. And there’s a lot more attention being paid to those people who are both student athletes as well as professional athletes. And it’s gonna continue to be out there because once all these forms of gambling are available, it’s too attractive not to do.

And so I think we’re gonna continue to see issues. And I totally agree with you that it undermines kind of feeling like the game is just the game. And that’s been NCAA’s issue all along.

They just want the players to be able to play without that pressure. And I don’t think we’re ever gonna get fully away from people being approached, harassed, and told that they can get paid if they just make this little change in their play or miss all their free throws or get out of the game. It’s just gonna continue to happen.

It sucks though, that we all know about it now because we’re like, did they really miss the ball or was it something somebody else forced them to?

Jeffrey Snyder, Broadcast Retirement Network

I think, I’m from Baltimore originally. I read the Ravens blogs and I can’t tell you how many times someone comments and says, oh, the refs, it’s a fix, that kind of thing. Probably just maybe just more frustration.

I wanna shift gears because I know an area that you focus on is gambling addiction, some of the gambling helplines. It’s great to bring in revenue. I think it’s great to create some entertainment, but how are we doing on the addiction side?

Are we making efforts to curb that or are people, is it like whack-a-mole where it just keeps on popping up everywhere?

Michelle Malkin, PhD., East Carolina University

A certain percentage of people who place their first bet will then go down a pathway of gambling-related harm and they don’t know when they’re placing that first bet if they’re gonna be one of those people because we’ve done no education to really help somebody know how to gamble in a lower risk way. So if everybody around them is gambling, why can’t they gamble? And so some people will experience gambling-related harms.

Those harms will accumulate and suddenly they will be in the reality of an addiction and they can’t stop. They can’t think rationally about it. The next win could fix all their problems, but we haven’t necessarily put enough money into what we need to truly be doing harm prevention, harm reduction, and engage people with tools early so that they know how to limit their play, keep it as entertainment, not think of it as a way to get money, know what to do with the win.

We just haven’t done that work. So we’re throwing all this opportunity for big win, even though less than 1% are ever gonna get that big enough win, that really does change their life. And so unfortunately, the brain doesn’t know that its dopamine pathways are starting to be impacted, that the prefrontal cortex is not thinking rationally anymore, that gambling can’t be the result of fixing all of their problems.

And so we just haven’t done the work. And it worries me, the more and more that’s accessible, it doesn’t even matter about legalization. Accessibility to an addictive behavior that isn’t well understood will ultimately lead some people down into the destruction, which we know when it comes to gambling disorder, there’s really two outcomes.

One is the commission of a gambling motivated crime, and the other is very high suicidal ideation. Two things we really wanna avoid.

Jeffrey Snyder, Broadcast Retirement Network

I worry about children, as I’m sure you do. I worry about like the kids in high school, they all have phones. I mean, my nieces and nephews have phones.

I worry about them. And I can see the forest for the trees. I think a lot of people maybe don’t, they only see the short-term fix.

But I can’t help but look at these devices, these apps and say, man, it’s a fix. It’s been programmed. It’s not, there’s no chance here.

Michelle Malkin, PhD., East Carolina University

That’s the- Well, you know, is that true also of video poker machines and casinos?

Jeffrey Snyder, Broadcast Retirement Network

Absolutely, it’s a fix.

Michelle Malkin, PhD., East Carolina University

It’s an algorithm. It’s a fix. Some people are gonna win, but the idea is that it’s addiction by design.

There’s a whole book written about that. And that is, is that you win just enough to keep you engaged. And then ultimately the house always wins.

Jeffrey Snyder, Broadcast Retirement Network

Yeah, I mean, that, I don’t know. I’m not like a rocket science. I’m certainly not in your field, but it just looks, when I look at that on face value, it looks like it’s a, I’m gonna call it a fix, but you’re right.

The house always wins. Dr. Malcolm, we’ve got about a minute left. I wanna give you an opportunity.

We’ve talked about a lot of things. What are some of the key takeaways that you think come from our conversation this morning?

Michelle Malkin, PhD., East Carolina University

I would say that the most important thing for your viewers, for everybody, is to know that there are tools out there to help people engage with gambling in an entertainment way. And that they could be doing time limits. They could be doing deposit limits.

They can be using different tools that are put out by our industry. And that people, if they choose to engage in gambling, should do so in a legal and regulated way. And to try to avoid these kind of offshore apps and things like that that are easy access.

But as you say, the algorithm is really against them there because there’s no regulation. And that we unfortunately are gonna continue to see different kinds of issues with athletics and sports. But ultimately most people are in the game because they really wanna be there.

And they’re not all gonna be swayed by gambling and harassment and engagement in these like unlawful activities. And I do believe that we’re at a high on those things. But while we’ll continue to see issues arise, I think there will be others swayed by what’s happening to say, I’m not gonna engage in that.

I love my game too much. I love not being in jail too much. And therefore, I’m gonna keep the game real.

Jeffrey Snyder, Broadcast Retirement Network

Yeah, and I like more money in my pocket as opposed to someone else’s. Dr. Malkin, always great to see you. Thanks for the update.

And we look forward to having you back on the program again very soon.

Michelle Malkin, PhD., East Carolina University

Of course, nice to see you as well.